TEN YEARS WHICH HAVE SHAKEN... ALEXANDER JAKOVLEV: THE SOVIET
TEN YEARS WHICH HAVE SHAKEN... ALEXANDER JAKOVLEV: THE SOVIET
THE SYSTEM COULD BE BLOWN UP ONLY FROM WITHIN.
- Alexander Nikolaevich so happens, that in previous time we
To you talked ten years ago - in the morning on August, 16th, 1991,
On Friday. And in the morning on Monday 19th all world has learnt about
Performance GKCHP.
And because of what you have dispersed then from Gorbachev? What cat
Between you has run?
- I to it have told, that there will be a revolution. And it to me: "Sasha, throw
You. You overestimate their mind and bravery ". Anything I not
Overestimated. I knew all of them as peeled. Them after all why in
This business failure has comprehended? First of all they between
Itself the consent have found. The Minister of Defence, for example, has not wanted
To go under KGB. At them after all never historically was especially
Close relations. That one others forward left. If
Brezhnev leant against army, Khruschev - on KGB, though and not with most
The beginnings and after Beriju have cleaned. For Antropov, of course,
The main support too was KGB, but thus it remained in good
Relations and with Minister of Defence Ustinovym:
- As you consider, if GKCHP has won - and such quite could
To happen, we have passed then, as they say, on a knife blade, - that
Would become with Russia? Where we now would be? What would be
"A return point" - Antropov, Brezhnev, Stalin? Or they have tried
To construct one more, own variant "socialism with
Human face "?
- Certainly, that farce which was and to in many respects would repeat
Them. After all and before there were some quite normal words:
"We for democracy, only the socialist. For the people blessing. All
For the blessing of the person, all for the sake of the person ". All was covered with these
Words. And all became on the contrary. And so, if to mean
Structure of conspirators, I think, it and would begin again. After all they
Have grown on this manure. Style of behaviour and even style of thinking at
Them was corresponding. Thus, probably, someone from them even
Believed in justice of so-called ideas of communism and was
It is convinced, that this communism should be constructed. Though I am more declined
To that the Marxism for them was dark wood. If they it
Knew, would not stand on these positions.
- Apparently, the Marxism for all communists was dark wood.
Unless Buharin something in him "sek". It after all was considered as the main thing
The theorist of party.
- Yes, he still knew something. Perhaps, read "Capital": Judging by
To everything, "German ideology": Some economic jobs
Other "classics" of Marxism: Something, of course, read and
Institute teachers of Marxism-Leninism. Have been compelled
To read and the nobility. And in general to say that at so-called
Communists there were any sights, it is not necessary.
There were no sights. There were rituals. All-Union rituals,
Called to show existence of sights and fidelity
It.
- And for you, one of heads of party, the Marxism was not
Dark wood?
- After institute when I already worked in the Central Committee, I thought, that knew
Marxism. But after HH congress at me something was upset, and I
Has asked on job for Academy of social studies. And here then
I have started to read really. Really, meaningly to read,
Instead of for examinations. Marx, Engels, Bernstein, known
Critics of Marxism: I simply was struck dumb because, that I of it
nichegoshenki did not know. This absolutely empty, inconsistent
The cultural urological doctrine. Talently written on language, but,
Excuse, it is the middle of XIX century: And this marasmus revoljutsionizma,
Cast by the French revolution: All these high words about
istoricheskojmissii proletariat: I began to perceive for the first time all
These dogmas as they are, without propaganda accompaniment.
"Violence - the midwife of history": What is? As it can
To be? Or: "Violent revolution - the history locomotive": Then,
I remember, has read in "Manifesto", that the Marxism stands up for
Harmony establishment in human relations, but thus - for
Struggle of one class against another before utter annihilation.
Anything to itself harmony!
- All contradictions in Marxism spoke dialectics,
Which is supposedly deeper than the usual logic.
- Yes to explain all of them explained. All at them was smooth.
- Certainly, not all so is simple with it GKCHP. Here we speak: them
Performance - high treason, attempt state
Revolution, penal: It is all correctly. And Belovezhsky
Agreements - that, they are legitimate? As it so - to be going to three together and
To declare: everything, Soviet Union does not exist any more? Than it
Differs from performance GKCHP? However, there there were tanks, and here -
Papers. There is, of course, a difference. Under the form.
- For last ten years it was necessary to our people much
To go through, and for the majority of people these burdens and now
Proceed, and the end it is not visible to them. If then, during a time
Reorganisations - and you were one of its initiators, - you could though
Partly to expect all those nightmares which will fall upon Russia
The next decade, you would save confidence, that
Reorganisation is really necessary? All the same at communists -
At Brezhnev, Antropov, CHernenko - people lived though and is poor, and
Hard, but more or less easy, with bolshej or smaller
Confidence, as they say, in tomorrow.
- My position has not changed on an iota. Certainly, material
The blessings are important, but, as they say, not bread uniform: Thus, that
The person before reorganisation as many consider, lived more or less
Tolerably, it was not the person. He only thought, that it the person.
- It not the intellectual approach? After all for the majority of people
All the same the one and only criterion is important - well they live or
Badly. On the rest it to spit.
- I not so on it look. At communists people a word superfluous
Were afraid to tell. Hardly that, it straighten out: "You keep mum!" Here
This silent person for me - the half-person. How it so? It
What, was born without language? And silence quite often represented as
Any anti-Soviet trick. I remember, when I worked in
Institute of economic and the international relations, somehow
Has invited to act Hazanova. Well Hazanov is Hazanov, but in that
Time it behaved very accurately: probably, wanted nobody
To substitute. Nevertheless all the same next day nakatali
tsidulju: say, acting somehow suspiciously was silent, and people
Thus laughed. And this "cart" seriously considered, called
Me "where it is necessary". As well as Hazanova so he to me even has told
Then: "Well everything, my actor's career is terminated". Hardly all
It was possible to dip. Here tell to me, please: it that -
Normal society? During reorganisation have arisen freedom
Words, creativity freedom, parliamentarism, has been stopped
"Cold war", political reprisals have stopped: But who
Knew, what there will be a mutiny such foolish? It has definitively torn off all
Economic communications. The chaos has increased, disintegration was accelerated. All the same
Soviet Union would not survive in that kind in what it was. It
Absolutely clearly. An another matter that it was necessary to issue this process
In the "velvet" image - through confederation creation, through
Quiet negotiations, through an establishment mutually advantageous
Economic relations:
I think, that in the known program of "500 days" have been put in pawn
It is a lot of reasonable. In it the such, for example, contained
Concept, as the economic union. No, have decided to save the union
Political (Lukjanov especially on it insisted). Here and
Have received putsch: No, other way at the country was not, I in it
It is convinced. If to take statistics who was conditions before
Reorganisation, - we faced to accident. First of all
The economic.
It by all means would happen in a year-two. Thus above
Was such omertvlenie, such inability soberly to look on
Event:
- Anybody from sane people, naturally, does not mind,
That the freedom of speech is very important. But we take a present situation. After all
Had a good long talk, uttered - both at Gorbachev, and in the beginning
Yeltsin epoch. podnadoelo to all to speak. Now all the same
Look, how we live. And we live badly: the salary low, pension and
At all the beggarly: Meanwhile millionaires zhirujut. Even billionaires
Is. Huge stratification in a society.
- Certainly, such strong stratification to suppose it was impossible.
It is necessary to know psychology of Russian person a little bit all the same. We
Always envied the neighbour which at least has more,
Than at us. Well and if it is more on the whole ram, it,
Certainly, the swindler. Such psychology at us was generated
Very long time ago - from poverty, from a beggary. But this incomplete
Explanation of that has occurred. It would be full, if people,
Which you have named billionaires - I at them did not consider money, - not
Would defy the riches in traditional Russian merchant
To manner, would not parade it. Somehow me have invited on
Conference in Monte-Carlo, and there in private conversation with the mayor I
Has heard: "For us it is, of course, good, that to us now many yours
Men of means come, that they at us spend money, but you
Me do not convince, what is it not thieves ". There comes the person about a family
Maids, removes in hotel the whole floor, squanders money not considering:
If someone has tried to find out, that for people make
"Advance party" of our so-called businessmen, it was found out
What is it the people who have left prisons, from Komsomol workers,
Sons of the parents who have secretly saved money still in Soviet, and in
Later years not so fair ways:
By the way, somehow I have heard from one French researcher:
"We know: children of the majority of heads of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation are occupied
Business, and we help them with hope that fathers will not be
To take away the capital from children ". Why gajdarovskaja
Liberalisation of the prices and privatisation have not put us on rails
Normal economy? Have for some reason believed, that should arise
Class of rich people which become locomotives. But, probably,
Have selected not those machinists. It first. And secondly, whence
Such confidence about occurrence of locomotives? So-called
Oligarchs have not wanted to be them.
Now as to poor people: that have put in the such
Position of teachers, doctors, pensioners, is, of course, in
What gate does not climb. I consider: when you accept any
The decision at the state level, at first think, what is it
Will bring to the concrete person. But after all along with valid
Suffering people it is a lot of gamble. We after all all taki
The country zhalobshchikov. The Soviet power has accustomed us to complaints. We them
In millions wrote. In a different occasion. Denunciations and complaints. Well to whom in
To America will come in a head to write the complaint, what he badly lives?
To anybody. At what here the power? At what here the government? They on
Elections vote for or against this or that figure - that's all
Their "complaints". And more one. Badly there live many older persons: But here
Such question: and where at us children disappeared?
Why to me and my contemporaries in a head did not come, that I not
Should feed the father and mother when they have reached
Certain age? That, I should go to the state,
To demand etc.? Why at us now in Russia so it has turned out,
What like as already also there are no children? And like as already is not present at children
Obligations to the parents. So here to cost to think
About morals, about conscience and about the other. And that after all we have got used all
To demand from the state - the state to us something should. No, you
To itself should. That do you stick to the state? You from it
Demand, that wars were not. That it protected you from gangsters.
Here I understand it.
- Last ten years in the country there were radical
Changes:
Using classical concepts, the socialism has been replaced
Capitalism. Of what such Gorbachev, as is known, did not think.
He wished to improve, modernise socialism only. And you
Then understood, that improvement of socialism business will not manage. You
After all were close colleague Gorbachev.
- I will respond as on spirit. Yes, at the very beginning of reorganisation I too
Adhered to a position of perfection of socialism. And I think,
That this position was at that time objectively defensible.
Imagine, that we in 1985 would tell, that is necessary
To pass to other public order. After all here now all
Us accuse, that we did not have a plan. What plan? Give instead of
Socialism we will found other system? Where we would appear? Most
Near - in Magadan. And that would not take:
- Aloud it is not necessary to speak, of course. I mean that
Was in thoughts.
- And in thoughts: I am assured, that more and more or less sane
People have been concentrated then to those disgraces, which
Were created. It seemed: here if these disgraces to clean (to stop
Political reprisals to give to people completeness of the information,
To cease to be afraid of people, to liquidate a nomenclature class as
The class which is above people, stage by stage to enter selectivity), inevitably
To the power fair people will come. Here and I had such illusion,
Which has scattered then in down and ashes. To the power have come just
Demagogues. I was mistaken. I repent. Somehow I thought of ours is better
Voters who should understand for whom vote.
It appears, a wine-glass to it have poured - here it and votes "for whom it is necessary".
You are right: all these conversations on democracy to it "to a bulb". And
In general, as is known, many our troubles from drunkenness. To sweat it not
Wants, and to drink wants. And drunk work does not happen. Has not thought up it
The nature. Here if on a sweat glass the vodka drop has -
It also will be the Country rich and occupied by rich people. And
Now while a return parity of these liquids.
- You were the succeeding party official: have reached in
To party career of a ceiling - a post of a member of the Political bureau of the Central Committee of the CPSU.
The introduction on a way of reforms personally for you meant performance
Against the all-powerful party device and, accordingly, the wild
Hatred from party officials, persecution, streams
Slander, threats. By the way, on the eve of that our ten years' prescription
Conversations the message has come, that the Bureau of Presidium of the Central Committee of the CPSU has acted with
The offer to exclude you from the party. That is actually to
To the moment of our meeting you already have left the party membership card. That
Has induced you to replace a quiet, safe life with a life,
Full of cataclysms and stresses? When there was a such
Desire?
- Any concrete moment was not. I weigh the way to
To enlightenment has described in memoirs. All begins with such philosophical
Statuses, as doubt. But doubts on particulars - in
Justice of this or that action, in correctness of behaviour
This or that person, in sincerity of speech of this or that
The Kremlin leader: After all I participated in a writing of these speeches. And
All of us fine understood, that much from written - bosh
The dog. But understood not only we. The increasing number of people
Started to realise, that we live a threefold life: we think one,
We speak another, and it is arrived on - the third: Difficulty in what
Consisted - how to translate these doubts and the increasing protest in
Practical actions. In due time I sympathised with dissidents.
It has begun with "the New world", from struggle against "October", with "Young
Guards ", with" the Soviet Russia "when it headed still
The Moscow: And I have understood, that dissidents cannot make anything.
Moreover, KGB has started to row up them under the wing. To hire.
To start on dissident circle of the agents. I know many.
Has then learnt. Who is who.
Eventually I have come to one conclusion: this wild system
It is possible to blow up only from within, using its totalitarian spring
- Party. Using such factors, as discipline and brought up
For years trust to the Secretary general, to the Political bureau: time
The general speaks so, means, so. Besides, during the moment
Gorbachev's arrival on the higher party post we used that
Circumstance, that all party leaders began the
Activity from broadcasting statements: about freedom (in
Socialist understanding, certainly), about the socialist
Democracies, that at us the highest culture most
Good life, and if not these damned imperialists, in general
All would be perfect: And so we of it have begun with all. On
April plenum it is all have swallowed. Though there in the report already
The thesis about freedom of a social choice has sounded. Have swallowed.
The thesis about democracy development - in two-three cases has sounded without
Epithet of "socialist". Have swallowed.
Words about the initiative of people as a primacy, a basis have flown
Society developments. Have swallowed. It has been reduced pohvalba in the address
Wise management of communist party. Nobody was indignant:
As, all after all is confirmed on the Political bureau, so, so all and
Should be; let the new secretary general will talk, will show, what it
The wide guy; to do all of us equally we will in own way. When
Conformists have begun to worry? In 1987, after January plenum,
Where we have raised the question about alternative elections. To many
Then has reached: it after all under me dig, etak after all and me not
Will re-elect. After all here that is interesting: all nomenclature fine
Knew, that on free elections them will not re-elect. And
Really, on the first elections of 32 first secretaries obkomov and
krajkomov have not been selected. And after all it was only most-most
The beginning.
- In that our conversation you recognised, that ideas of reorganisation
Call furious resistance of party officials and
Functionaries, that supporters at Gorbachev this environment is insignificant
It is not enough: "pair of its assistants", a member of Security council Bakatin,
Still someone. "But I so have told, - you have summed up, - the list
Very short ". At the expense of what nevertheless it was possible to Gorbachev
To stand, finish reforms to such stage, when the go-ahead
Stick others already could pick up - Yeltsin and its command? For
The bill of skills of hardware struggle?
- And at the expense of it too. But, besides, at people after all then not
The confidence was gone still, that radical restructurings are necessary. In
The end of the ends, Yeltsin on it has risen. He demanded more resolutely
To carry out reforms, and the people have supported it. And Gorbachev, on the contrary,
Began to hesitate and fluctuate. It after all has actually lost the power not in
1991, and in 1990. When have filled up the program of "500 days", it
Has addressed to deputies with very weak speech where spoke about
Certain palliative measures, including about dissolution of the presidential
Council, unique body which resisted to the Political bureau. But
Thus it has broken a storm of applause from the party definitely
The adjusted public, and it has not guarded him. Probably, it has lost
Political scent.
- On the eve of August putsch of 1991 you spoke about the
Passionate desire to see the country of the changed: "Eventually,
We should pull out the country on rails of the democratic right! In
The end of the ends, has our people on this right! "As believe,
Have pulled out?
- While is not present. But I look forward with optimism. I very much
Positively I concern, for example, the ground spent now
To reform. It is my pain. I always said, that for Russia it
Fatal question. I consider, that we have insufficiently estimated this step -
Acceptance of the Ground code. Here where a basis of revival of Russia -
The earth and the private proprietor on it! One more great business -
Judicial reform: jury introduction, norm introduction, when
The person cannot be arrested without the court decision: All is perfect
Affairs. And if besides the material raises
Well-being - and I am assured, that it will raise, - it is possible
To consider, that business is not too badly. One more important issue,
Which now like try to carry out, - debjurokratizatsija
Economy. If to spend it up to the end, such blow will be struck on
To this obscene muzzle of officials. After all that such ours
Officials? It is one million small stalinyh which have grasped
The power in the country, having created a society "demokratury": under the pretext of
Democracies have established avtokratiju. Well and many other things of business
The present power I approve - military reform, creation plans
Professional army: But it is necessary, of course, and reform
The administrative. Otherwise the official will swallow all other reforms.
And not poperhnetsja. As a crocodile. Huge, all over the country
Crocodile. It will do all on the contrary or easier to sabotage. To
To sabotage he has got used. Is able it is very thin to arrange. It I on
To myself I know.
- In what the sense of the administrative, in your opinion, should consist
Reforms?
- Understand, when in the country a private property, the official
Should be exactly so much that it did not have not enough time
To be put in private affairs. This brotherhood it is necessary to reduce a minimum on
Half. And even it is more. The state main task - not to stir
To people. It is necessary to aspire to that was as much as possible
The person and as small as possible - the states. Well and, certainly,
The state should protect the person from kriminala. Now it it
Does badly.
- You already long enough head the Commission on rehabilitation
Victims of political reprisals. What main facts, which you for
This time have learnt also which you have shaken? Has how much changed
Your representation about scales of the reprisals which were carried out
Communistic mode, in comparison with in the meantime, when you
Only started this job? In what degree the opening
Before you the picture strengthens you in confidence, that
Gorbachevsko-Yeltsin reforms were necessary?
- At us in village of the groom have shot that is too narrow
Connected anklebones to horses when let out them in night, - they them
Erased. The obvious wrecker. I am amazed by indifferent reaction of ours
Societies on the truth about that period. Like anything also was not. And after all
One shot - millions.
Shot for no reason at all. I have read recently one
The private affair - Zynaidas Admiralskoj. Worked as the weaver in Ivanov.
There were instructions to put forward from workers on Komsomol job. It
Have selected the first secretary Ivanovo obkoma Komsomol. Have called in
KGB, have shown a certain list:
Listen, here it is people who, in our opinion, plan
Act of terrorism against heads of party and the government,
Against Stalin; you become at the head of them, inform us, that all of them
Your accomplices on this plot, and we then will deduce you from
This business. She has refused. It all the same took and have shot.
Directly ahead of execution she has asked a pocket mirror, that
To correct hair, to die in a worthy kind. Me has amazed
This fact. And after all shot thus, after the such
podstav it was full.
- Bolshego all, apparently, it has been subjected to repression Russian:
- Stalin despised Russian people, aspired to destroy it.
- And it not seems to you, what it and has destroyed it?
- Actually yes.
- Many after all rather sceptically look and at the Russian future
The people, and on the future of Russia. The nation has been exsanguinated.
- Yes, it is exsanguinated. The genofund is, of course, undermined. It very much
Serious problem. The most active part of a society was
It is destroyed. And wars in which not in the last instance too were
Bolsheviks, - the youngest are guilty. After all the future has been destroyed
The countries - those of thirty millions which were lost during war
1941 - 1945. The future writers, academicians, scientific were lost:
Geniuses: the youngest and the most beautiful.
Conversation Oleg conducted the FROST.
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//* an information Source: the Literary newspaper, 10.10.01
//* Reg. Nom. - 1111000003.10-------------------------------------------
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